[00:00:00] Rayna Neises: Welcome. This is Rayna Neises, your host of A Season of Caring Podcast, where we share stories of hope for family caregivers, breaking through the busyness and loneliness of caregiving to find God, even in the middle of the season. Today I’m excited to introduce you to Carole Leathem. Carole is a Jesus girl who loves a good cup of coffee to start her day. She’s a speaker, encourager, author, podcaster, wife, mom of two, beagle cat mom, and Mama to seven grandchildren, she’s launched a ministry for caregivers in February of 2024.

[00:00:34] Fun fact, she also has worked in Hollywood for 15 years. Welcome Carole. I’m so glad to have you here today

[00:00:41] Carole Leathem: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here and have our conversation.

[00:00:45] Rayna Neises: So share with us a little bit about what your caregiving seasons have looked like.

[00:00:49] Carole Leathem: So about 10 years ago, my husband, who was a pastor, began to struggle with mental health issues and started with anxiety, led to depression. And after about nine or 10 months, he became suicidal. And so he had to go into, a psychiatric hospital and it just kind of turned our whole world, upside down. And when he came out, we moved in with our kids, because he had to retire early and go on social security and all of those things. And I found myself sort of losing my entire identity because I had been a pastor’s wife, a wife, and then I had also been a speaker and a Bible teacher. And all of that just sort of kind of dried up.

[00:01:28] And I woke up one day and didn’t know what was going on. And so for the last nine years, that’s been my life is caring for him. And he is doing very well right now. But then two years ago, I added my mother who has some very serious health issues. And so I care for her long distance. So I make regular trips to Milwaukee, my grandchildren call that my second home, to help with my mom’s care. And so now my husband, is also developing some health issues. So that’s bringing another layer of caregiving. And one day I woke up and I was like, God, what the heck? And God’s like, see, you need to start this ministry.

[00:02:08] So that was really, that was kind of the jumping off point for me was realizing that God had put all of this in my life so that. As a caregiver, I can help encourage caregivers. And so many times the encouragers I was reaching out to were not caregivers, so they didn’t understand the needs. And so God’s like, girl, you’re like in the thick of it. So. Get busy. And so I’ve been working Pretty good speaking and teaching and writing for the last year about caregiving.

[00:02:40] Rayna Neises: So many of us find ourselves in that season and different types of seasons, just like you described. I have as well dealt with my ex husband who had mental illness issues, and that caregiving was such a different level than caring for my parents who had Alzheimer’s, you know, those needs of the older generation and those kinds of dependencies are so different than caring for mental illness.

[00:03:04] Carole Leathem: Yeah,

[00:03:05] Rayna Neises: It still takes so much bandwidth and so much compassion, but that ability to, I struggled with just stepping back and he was making so many decisions I had no control over. It was really, really difficult. And with my dad, he, thankfully he really was very good at saying, he handed the checkbook over to my sister without any problems. And most people don’t hear that. That doesn’t happen to most people, but we definitely had more.

[00:03:35] So it’s, it’s challenging and we do have to put on that caregiver hat doesn’t look the same in,

[00:03:45] Carole Leathem: No, no, it doesn’t. And there are mornings where I wake up and I have to say, okay, what? You know, that’s what I, that’s actually how I identify it. We didn’t actually have this conversation before we started our conversation, but that is how I look at it is which hat am I putting on? Because there are different needs. There are different, responses. There are different, intensities even.

[00:04:09] And So there are mornings where I wake up and I’m like, okay, what’s today is today? Mental health day is today. Physical health day is today. I’ve got to be there for my mom. And, you know, um, and my mom, poor thing, you know, yesterday, we we spent 45 minutes trying to get a code out of her phone long distance because I needed this code to unlock something that I needed to do. And finally, I just said, you know what? I’ll wait till Sunday when you’re with my sister and she can get the code because it just got to the point where I was wanting to crawl through the phone line and just grab the phone. work. I couldn’t do it. So she’s

[00:04:46] I’m getting frustrated and it wasn’t good for anybody.

[00:04:48] Rayna Neises: And that’s the wisdom of doing this for a long season

[00:04:54] is when to say, uncle, now’s not the time. Let’s just take a deep breath and

[00:04:59] Carole Leathem: right. Is, Really important, you know, and I mean, I’ve automated everything for her so that I can pretty much do it from here, but there’s one thing that I made the mistake of putting her phone number in instead of my phone number order to change it. I have to get the code out of her phone. So,

[00:05:16] Rayna Neises: exactly.

[00:05:17] Carole Leathem: But then you ask yourself, okay, how important is this? Is this worth the frustration to me? Is it worth the frustration to her? And the answer is no. It can be dealt with at a different time. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:30] Rayna Neises: when we’re first starting this journey, we were like, Oh, but we’ll figure it out. You know, you just hang in there longer and you get to the hair pulling out stage and you still keep trying the longer you’ve been doing it, the more you can just really weigh it and just say what’s this worth?

[00:05:43] Do we have to do this right now? And so many times the answer is no, and it’s sad because even technology is such a blessing. Even for me at times, you’re just like, Oh, why can I not get this to work? So totally understand having aging parents trying to deal with it. Such a hard.

[00:06:01] Carole Leathem: Well, and even you were talking about your experience with your ex husband, you know, I’ve been married to my husband almost 48 years. 10 years, we’ve been dealing with the mental health issues, and now that has led to some physical issues and some surgeries. He’s had three major surgeries in the last 14 months, and that brings on a different type of care and different, you know, different concerns. And even with the mental health, I think sometimes when we’re caregiving for somebody who struggles with anxiety, or who struggles with depression, both of those are very, very, very difficult when they’re manifesting themselves in a loved one. We have to almost like say to ourselves when like, I’ll get so frustrated and I, and I’ll just say to myself inside my head, is this really worth what you’re about to say?

[00:06:51] And is it what it’s going to call, you know, it’s going to cause a problem because you’re frustrated and you’re antsy. And sometimes my choice of response will dictate where the next few minutes are going to go, and I have learned to just calmly say, you know, I don’t need to say that and just close my mouth, and just let it happen. And then maybe circle back around the next day or. You know, just kind of judging the circumstances, it’s hard, but you have to learn how to do that.

[00:07:25] Rayna Neises: When there’s less emotion involved, it definitely is an easier conversation, but unfortunately, emotion on both sides just kicks in pretty quickly. And that’s one of the things even in dementia care, it’s joining their reality. It’s not important that it’s not Sunday, even though. It’s really not Sunday, you know, it’s not important. And so being able to let go of those things and just realize right here and right now, this person, this time, what we have together, that’s what we’ve got. And that’s what we have to work with. And, and that’s something again, age helped me so

[00:07:59] Carole Leathem: Mm hmm.

[00:08:00] Rayna Neises: When I was younger and trying to deal with my mom, she didn’t talk. So that’s probably a

[00:08:05] Carole Leathem: Oh,

[00:08:05] Rayna Neises: in that she couldn’t talk because she couldn’t tell us things that weren’t true. You know, she couldn’t say those kinds of things, but definitely staying with her in the moment was easier because she couldn’t interact

[00:08:15] in that way. She didn’t argue with you about things, but with my dad, it was definitely that trying to just take that deep breath and weigh how important is this and how is it going to affect the rest of the day and the rest of our time?

[00:08:27] Carole Leathem: I think our responses, I was just thinking about a circumstance with my mom where she sent me a text and said, my caretaker says I only have two bottles of apple cider left. So I just want you to know this, but I know you have lots of other busy things that are more important to take care of than this.

[00:08:44] And you know, she’s just being kind of sort of passive aggressive. And so the question is, how are you going to read this text? How are you going to respond to this text? And my response is I call her up and go, Hey, I’m going to order apple cider. Do you need anything else? And then she’ll say to me, how did you know that I needed it? And you know, it’s like, and I don’t, and at that point it would be really easy for me to pop off. Well, you sent me a text message and let me know.

[00:09:09] But the truth is she doesn’t remember and so when she says to me, Hey, I don’t think I ever told you that when you were in grade school, my parents adopted a brother and sister from China. I don’t think I ever told you that. And I’m like, and it would be really easy for me to say, Mom, I have an aunt and uncle. I know who they are. I’m, you know, 66 years old. But she does not really understand. It’s like you say, walking into her reality. And I think with anxiety and the depression and the mental health issues, it’s the same thing.

[00:09:46] Sometimes we need to understand that the suffering that is going on inside of our loved one Is so much more important than what we feel. And my husband’s mental health got even more complicated because it became blame and anger towards me. And so there were times where he would just scream at me and say, if you could just get your life together, mine would be fine. And in the beginning, of course, I’m fighting him and saying, what do you mean? You know, and reacting because I’m like, it’s not my fault. And then at some point, the answer, the easy answer was, I’m trying, I’m doing the best I can, because I’m not really copping to that’s what it is. But that answer seemed to work.

[00:10:28] And so, because it’s not about me getting my life together, but it’s hard. It’s hard as a human, when we feel like we’re being attacked for no reason. it’s dementia, whether it’s mental health issues, I think sometimes taking a breath Before we answer

[00:10:46] and

[00:10:46] Asking ourselves, what are the repercussions of what’s about to come out of my mouth? And so there you go

[00:10:53] Rayna Neises: Yeah. I often say breathe, pray, then

[00:10:59] Carole Leathem: Yeah Breathe pray speak

[00:11:02] Rayna Neises: And you have a choice in what that speech is going to be. And so it is kind of this process of take that breath, breathe, pray, then decide. Ask the Lord for help and then make a decision. Am I going to say this? Or am I going to say this? Or am I going to say this? Cause there’s really lots of ways to handle that. And I love that you found something that worked for you. That’s true for you, but also it can be true for him. You know, it can help him defuse that.

[00:11:26] One of the things Tipus knows says all the time is when we come with an agenda. People push against that agenda

[00:11:32] Carole Leathem: Yeah.

[00:11:34] Rayna Neises: We don’t think of it as being an agenda, but we’re trying to accomplish something. And usually that’s what the conflict is about. Let’s go to the doctor or let’s do this. And you have an agenda and because you’re pushing with that agenda, they are often just confused or not sure their agenda doesn’t match. And so this, there’s this push back that none of us like to be pushed.

[00:11:55] Carole Leathem: I also discovered early on in our journey with my husband’s mental health and the anger and the blame that there wasn’t a lot of practical help out there. So it wasn’t like I could just go sit down and talk to a therapist and explain the circumstances and he’d go, Oh, do this and this and this, or I couldn’t find a book.

[00:12:11] I couldn’t find help and I think that that happens because so many times. The situations or the circumstances are unique to the people. What I discovered was I was having to find my own coping skills. And so as I developed more and more of my own coping skills, that’s when I began to be proactive. And not reactive. And that’s when I saw this shift in how I was responding in my own mental health and my own strength of character. So I think it’s important for, and I did this, I created all kinds of my own coping skills that have helped me even now with my mom or with the lady at the grocery store.

[00:12:59] Rayna Neises: Exactly. Yeah, I think it’s true in all illnesses, in all situations, every individual is different. But part of what I love about supporting caregivers is I can share what I’ve done and it might not work for you, but it might. And so learning some tools, learning and listening to how other people are handling things really can be powerful in giving you a toolbox to at least say, I’m going to try this one today.

[00:13:25] And when it doesn’t work, say, Oh, let’s see what else is there. Okay. Let’s try this. Let

[00:13:29] Carole Leathem: absolutely. Absolutely. Can I share with you one of my favorite? it’s one that I developed because I throw epic fits at God. You know, there are times where I’ll wake up and I’ll go, I didn’t sign up for this. And then God says, well, Softly, the Holy Spirit softly whispers, Oh yeah, you did. you did. And one day I was in the garage and I was throwing an epic fit and I was screaming and, you know, most of the people, my husband was inside, but everybody else in the house was gone. And I often wonder if there was a neighbor walking by what they would think if they heard me outside the garage, because I was literally like yelling at God, do you see what’s going on or whatever?

[00:14:07] And all of a sudden I got this thought and I walked over to the workbench in my garage and my son in law has a workbench, I live with my kids and I grabbed this blue roll of painters tape and measuring tape and I marked out a three foot by three foot box. I measured it very carefully and taped off a three foot by three foot box in the middle of my garage. And I’m still screaming along the way, just. I was just fighting mad, spitting mad, and just telling God how unhappy I was with the circumstances that I found myself in. And so then I put the tape and the measuring tape back and I stepped, stood up and I looked up at the sky and I said, do you see this box? I’m going to step in this box and when I step in this box, that’s all I’m going to be able to deal with. And so I just physically stepped into the box. when I did, I said, this is all I can handle. You’re going to have to take care of everything else. And then I took a breath and I heard the Holy Spirit very clearly say to me, it’s about time. And what I realized is that I had been trying to control everything.

[00:15:21] When I really couldn’t control nothing and I have used that by called the blue tape box therapy and I have used that so many times I can pretty much draw three foot by three foot box without tape now on the floor and step into it because I think it’s a reminder of letting go of the things that we cannot control.

[00:15:43] Rayna Neises: We’ve been fooling ourselves all the rest of the time. The truth is we are all we can control our reactions, our responses, our grace, our truth, Mm hmm. All of those things are the only things that we can choose to control. We just think we’re controlling everything else.

[00:16:03] Carole Leathem: Yes. And it’s easy when things get uncomfortable. It’s easy for us to blame the things that are happening outside the box. But in reality, The truth is the things outside the box are going to happen no matter what it’s my choice to step into the box and let it go or to choose how I’m going to respond. And I think in a caregiving situation, I just came from having breakfast with my little 87 year old friend who, um, we were talking about different things. And I said, you know, it’s so hard as a caregiver because we feel irresponsible if we’re not pushing for health. or wellness. We feel like we’re not doing our job if we’re not taking care. But in reality, sometimes the best thing is to just take a step back and take a breath and walk outside. Listen to the quiet and let your anger and your frustration kind of and all of a sudden it changes the energy it changes the way you’re going to respond and that is so critical.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:13] Rayna Neises: that the Lord’s trying to teach us always. I jokingly say he gave me naturally curly hair so that every day I would be reminded, I’m not in charge because I can do as much as I can do, but it’s going to do what it wants. And some days it’s more stubborn than other days.

[00:17:30] And so that reminder throughout my life, I mean, every morning when I’m fighting that wave that goes the wrong direction, I’m like, yes, Lord, I know. Just put the hot iron down and go on with the day. Right. So, but it is something that we do. We really have to, it’s an ongoing lesson because sometimes we feel like we’re doing pretty well at just letting God have it all. And then the next thing we know, we find ourselves frustrated again and going, why can’t it just be? And it’s like, It’s just not supposed to be . We just need to let it

[00:18:00] Carole Leathem: You speak truth there, sister.

[00:18:03] Rayna Neises: so share with us, how has God really shown up for you? Share one story of where he really showed up for you in this

[00:18:09] Carole Leathem: You know, people, People crack up when I start telling them all the ways that God shows up. When this all crashed, we had planned to work for another 10, 15 years. And so we found ourselves. retired at an early stage. And my whole, I had a business that kind of went downhill, my speaking ministry, my teaching, somehow his illness negated my, you know, made me not, not, it invalidated me. And so I woke up one day and, I’m trying to balance a budget. I’m trying to figure out how to pay for stuff. And right before he got sick, this is kind of my pivotal moment where God has just continues to take me back to this moment where he showed me that he cares about the little things. Because I had made a promise to my kids for Christmas that year.

[00:18:59] He had, his crash happened in November, right before Christmas. And that particular Christmas was our first Christmas in the house. And my son in law’s parents were coming and I had made a commitment to buy some very expensive steaks and they had to come from a certain store and they had to be a certain cut and a certain gray.

[00:19:18] I mean, all of these things that you don’t know about steaks, but basically they, the bottom line is it was a lot of dollar signs. And so I found myself, um, we had just come back from being out of the area for his. He went into the hospital and then we couldn’t come home for four weeks cause he had to complete some outpatient care. So it was the first weekend we were back in town and we had just gone to church and it was so uncomfortable and we’re going home and I know I need to go buy this. and buy these stakes, but I don’t have the money. And I’m really one of those who I’ve never carried a balance on a credit card. And now I’m realizing that I’m going to put these stakes on a credit card and not be able to pay for them. And so it was hard. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done was to leave my husband in the car, walk in, tell the guy what I wanted. It’s like this old fashioned meat market and he’s wrapping them up and then he tells me it’s gonna be a hundred and forty nine dollars And seventy two cents and I’m like, okay And so as I’m pulling out my credit card to hand it to him, he goes, hey, I just made some sausages Let me throw these in.

[00:20:29] Hey, I just had this Let me throw this and he’s probably throwing in another 50 worth of meat Well, I’m standing there, so I pay for them. And then when I got back in the car, I did what I normally do because I’m pretty honest with God and I got real snarky with God. And I said, and I remember, didn’t say it out loud, but I remember holding this bag of steaks in my lap and looking kind of up into the air and, and thinking very, very Snarky. So God, how are you going to help? What are you going to do? Are you going to show up and pay? I mean, just like asking him, are you going to really, do you really care that I just bought 150 worth of meat that I can’t pay for, but I’m doing it now. There’s a lot of people who would say, don’t buy it. You know, there’s a lot of people who would say, but what I need you to hear is what happened next. I knew I needed to do it. So I go home and there’s a huge stack of mail that I haven’t gone through. We’ve been gone for a month and I start going through the mail. The steaks are in the refrigerator because you don’t put them in the freezer. They go into the refrigerator. I mean, all of these,

[00:21:31] I have a list of how to deal with these very expensive steaks. And as I’m going through, I start opening up the mail and I open up this envelope from my bank and there’s a letter in there and the letter says, dear Mrs. Letha, we just want to let you know that in blah, blah, blah, blah, you refinance this property at blah, blah, blah, blah. And we inadvertently overcharged you extra interest.

[00:21:55] So here’s a check for 72, no, for 42 or something. And I was like, Okay, that just paid for a third of these stakes.

[00:22:08] Rayna Neises: Mm-hmm

[00:22:09] Carole Leathem: I realized that about that time I had done another financial transaction with this bank. And so I opened up the other letter, which I found at the bottom of the pile. And basically right there in my desk, a month before they had been postmarked three weeks before I opened them. Three weeks before I bought these steaks, God had already put the money in the inbox on my desk in my house. And so I was able to deposit 151. 73 into my checking account that day. But more importantly, God was showing me that he cares about the little details and he sees what I’m walking through. And so I think it’s so hard and what I really want the listeners to hear me say is it’s not about the stakes.

[00:22:58] It’s not about the money. It’s about God seeing you and knowing exactly what is going on in your life. comfort there. There’s a comfort. Now, there have been times since then where that hasn’t happened and I’ve had to carry a balance on a, on a credit card and it slays me because I have to do it. But, you know, there’s,

[00:23:18] there’s a lesson there that, you know, there’s a lesson there that God does see it. And so many times we get so wrapped up in the details that we miss how God shows up. So that’s just one way I have seen God show up in my life in just an incredible way.

[00:23:37] Rayna Neises: I love it. I love the one thing I tell myself repeatedly and I often say when I’m praying is, Lord, none of this is surprising you.

[00:23:45] Carole Leathem: I know.

[00:23:47] Rayna Neises: It is a surprise to me over and over again, but this is not a surprise to you. And it wasn’t a surprise to him that you needed the money. And he gave it to you so much before you even knew you needed it.

[00:23:58] And we can find that supply before we even know we need it. It’s there. He’s got it.

[00:24:05] Carole Leathem: You know, I would like to also say that there’s another moment where I have seen God just really show up. And that is, I’ve had a friend in my life for 25 years at this point. And I knew she was a retired nurse, but when my husband first had his crash is what we call it, she was there.

[00:24:23] And she said to me, well before about two weeks before the crash, we were having lunch and I was really upset because I could kind of feel this momentum shifting and I knew something was going to happen and I knew it was bad. And she reaches across the table and she says to me, Carole, we’ve been friends for a long time.

[00:24:39] And I said, yes. And she said, you know, I’m a retired nurse. And I said, Oh yeah, I know you’re a retired nurse. And she said, what you don’t know is I’m a retired psychiatric nurse. And so God had put this woman in my life 25 years before, knowing that I was going to need her for this five year period of time where we were working with medication and hospitals and psychiatrists and all of these things.

[00:25:00] And there were so many times where I would call her and she’d go, okay, let’s stop for a second and let me break it down for you. And I think just seeing how God put her in my life. Knowing that I was like, we’ve talked about a few minutes and knowing that this is not going to surprise him and he put Nancy there way before this to build the relationship so that she would be there when I needed her. And I think that those are the things that we miss when we don’t take that breath and stop. And say, okay, God, how am I, you know, bring God, invite God, he’s already there.

[00:25:32] But when we invite him in, basically what we’re doing is we’re opening our heart so that we can see what he’s already going to do.

[00:25:42] Rayna Neises: So important and not easy to do. That’s part of why when I first started the podcast, it wasn’t the same structuring and God just really laid on my heart. You’re just. help Caregivers remember that I’m here just share stories so they know that I’m here because it can get so dark and it can get so hard and we can feel so tired.

[00:26:02] I hear that word over and over again as I coach. I’m just tired. I’m like, yes, you’re tired to the physical to the bone to the spirit. But keep looking because he’s here. Keep asking, just open the door. He’s showing you, you just haven’t, you’re too tired to lift your head. Just lift your head. You can, you can do it. We can walk to it together. We can, you know, we can pray and he’ll, he’s there.

[00:26:24] So. That’s my heart’s desire is just to remind people, because it’s a long journey sometimes. And it’s always hard, growing’s hard. And, and caring’s hard. It just is. So, but that’s okay because he’s faithful and with him, we can do it.

[00:26:40] We can take one step in the right direction each time and just, you know, allow Him to open the doors, allowing to, to love on you, even in the times that are difficult.

[00:26:49] Carole Leathem: And it’s real easy for me to get discouraged, because I don’t think anybody wakes up and says, Oh, I think this is how I want my life to go.

[00:26:58] Rayna Neises: Exactly.

[00:26:59] Carole Leathem: one, no one ever said, Oh, this is

[00:27:01] Rayna Neises: Sign me up!

[00:27:02] Carole Leathem: sign me up. But here’s the interesting thing, and this is why I started the ministry in February and why I’m.

[00:27:10] Continuing to work and speak and write and encourage caregivers, because there’s 55 million of us in the United States alone. And when we say that we feel alone, it feels alone. I mean, I was somewhere yesterday morning at six o’clock working out with a whole bunch of people from my church. And, I just felt alone because I was overwhelmed with some circumstances that I was dealing with and I’m not stepping into the conversation to talk to them.

[00:27:40] I’m staying on the outskirts because my isolation is what we tend to do when we feel overwhelmed. And what the isolation does it, it just, it says to us, yeah, you are alone because nobody cares, but it’s not true. It’s not true. We get on this road of, okay, where you’re feeling overwhelmed, then we feel alone, then we isolate. And then all of a sudden we’re confirming. That we’re alone, which is not true.

[00:28:05] So

[00:28:06] I just hope that if there’s somebody out there that’s listening, that feels alone, then they need to understand they’re not alone. They have me, they have you, they have 55 million other people out there. And so my goal is to just encourage and, let’s link arms and support and encourage each other.

[00:28:24] Rayna Neises: Yeah, for sure. I love that. Thank you so much, Carole, for being here today. Can you let our audience know how they can find out more about you and remind us again of the podcast and all the fun things you’re

[00:28:35] Carole Leathem: So my ministry is called The Caretaker’s Journey. So you can reach me at the caretakersjourney. com. That’s the website. And then my book, I have a book that sort of tells the story of My journey with my husband for the first six or seven years, it’s called, Are You Ready to Find Joy When Life Gets Messy? Because it is a messy life and it’s available wherever books are and you can also find more information on that on the website. And then my podcast is called the caretaker’s journey podcast and it drops every Friday morning. And it’s wherever podcasts, can be found wherever you listen to your podcast. So I would say reach out to me, please find me on my website. Email me. If you sign up for the email list, I have a really, I have one of my favorite ways of resetting that you’ll get as a free download.

[00:29:21] It’s just a little solitude thing that I walk people through that just helps you remember if God’s there, He cares, He sees you. So lots of fun things coming up. So if you’re. Follow you go and sign up for the newsletter. You’ll get to hear what’s coming up in the new year. So yeah

[00:29:37] Rayna Neises: Well, thank you again for being here and just sharing part of your story and so much encouragement with us

[00:29:44] Carole Leathem: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it

[00:29:47] Rayna Neises: Listeners, thank you for joining us for Stories of Hope with Carole. A Season of Caring Podcast has been created to share stories of hope for living content, loving well, and caring without regrets. If you find yourself with legal, financial, or medical questions, be sure to consult your local professionals and take heart in your Season of Caring.

*Transcript is an actual recount of the live conversation